I was confronted while ministering in prison that God does not punish us for our sins, that he already punished Jesus at the cross. The book of Hebrews is meant to challenge, encourage, and empower Christian believers. I still have to go back to my statement,god knows how to discipline his children,to balance them,correct them not crucify them. http://www.NewcovenantGrace.com, Andre, It proves you are His delightful child. I had this very verse heaped on me by a religious volunteer at a state prison he and I minster at. I think you are changing what it says to fit what you want. Also, if you have really been chastized, then you will endure it and always understand it came from God and eventually be happy for it as a true follower of Christ (while carrying your own cross). 12 For the Lord disciplines those he loves, just as a father disciplines the son in whom he delights. Our Lord was scourged, why shouldn’t we be scourged? It must be “2 Corinthians 11:24”. Title: When the various New Testament books were formally brought together into one collection shortly after A.D. 100, the titles were added for convenience. ). To everyone reading this, please limit future comments on this thread to the post above (scourging). Big difference. hi Fifi never considered Swaggart,i liked the music,because he and Jerry lee Lewis where cousins and i liked that sound,they learned to play the piano from the same old black man when they where kids,so they both played the same style,when swaggart messed up,he kind of disappeared.then he messed up again in the 90s. Change ), You are commenting using your Twitter account. 7 Then Herod 11 privately summoned the wise men and determined from them when the star had appeared. KING JAMES VERSION (KJV) TRANSLATION, MEANING, CONTEXT. See that you are not frightened … they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name.” And all of these things happened to the disciples, just as Jesus said. Here are 7 more reasons why he doesn’t. Look at David who messed up, Abraham yet in God’s eyes, they were awesome. I heard an illustration that really gave me peace. He came to save. It was typically applied to criminals before execution and there was no law limiting the number of strokes applied. Hebrews was written in Hebrew, or I know you wrote this a while back, but I had to read it. The word scourges has been translated differently than what the Holy Spirit wanted. It may seem that you’re better than other Christians, but unless you keep the law perfectly, you are not. If we worship ink we will take these verses to be literally the words of the Father, and from them misunderstand the true nature of God. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Rom 6:8 They willfuly sin when they try and be God using their own will. 2. It goes something like this: We take the Bible like a photograph of what God is saying to us today. ( Log Out /  Might we even say that no one enters the Kingdom of God without one or more mastigoi…. It is God’s benevolence, mercy and kindness towards us whereby He blesses us with relationship and status that was not earned by us. Hebrews 12:5 - Both these states are wrong, either to think nothing of chastisement or else to faint under it; we are not to fall into either evil, but to keep the golden mean between them. Discipline is painful and unpleasant but in due time produces righteousness and peace I felt like I had failed and as the enemy did his best to bring me even lower, My gracious Father said to me “When was the last time you saw a Christian “scourged?” “When was the last time I scourged you?” I said I had never seen a scourging or had received one from you Lord. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”. We are to accept and endure this correction from God, for our own good without any effort on our own to counter or correct this error, except with a permanent change in heart, if necessary. ), Submission doesn’t mean what you think it means, 6 awesome things that will happen when Christ returns. None of us can overcome sin through our will. The old has now gone but, until renewed, our minds still struggle with that garbage. How do we know what sin is? Every son God recieved was scourged with Christ and died with Christ in order to resurrect with Christ. What do you think Kevin, do you believe this? The Hyper-Grace Gospel I don’t fully understand it all but I trust that God is not a child abuser. Jesus on the Cross has become our punishment.” So why now would God punish us again, then Jesus would have gone through it in vain. for those being disciplined/chastened i think there must have been a sin they did & so they had to endure it was the case in king david which btw what were your thoughts on my previous post on him?& also in my opinion(feel free to correct me if wrong)i think those being chastened are kinda being saved from judgment in Christ’s second coming since they are guaranteed to be chaste & all thus the scripture stating that God loves them. 3. “For those whom the Lord loves he disciplines, and he scourges every son whom he receives.” I use to think that meant, God said all things work together for good and when we go through evil times, cuz I was formally under religion; I thought it was God that instigated the evil but he don’t but he will allow certain things to happen to allow us to change. As the Jesus has taken all the curse of the laws upon himself, God will not punish us; though he will correct us. He really is just trying to rescue his own and set us free from sin and its affects. You are great blessing and encouragement to so many! But does this “misquote” fit with other areas of God’s revealed character? If this is true then I would suggest that anyone who does not have the ability to read Hebrew and Greek is waisting their time reading the Bible. All I know is this, Christ is our redemption, what we should have rightly suffered, he did for us so why then would God want it for us all over again. Rom 2:4 says that the goodness or kindness of God leads a man to repentance. We all need to stop providing our own wisdom if we are to be led by the Spirit. As far as I can tell, they all say stuff like this: “Scourges” means literally to flog or scourge… and entails any suffering which God ordains… God’s chastisement includes not only his “whipping” us so to speak for specific transgressions (but even here with the idea of remedial not retributive intent), but also the entire range of trials and tribulations which he providentially ordains and which work to mortify sin and nurture faith, ultimately serving to conform us to the image of His Son… Notice that “scourges” is in the present tense, which indicates that this is not a one time event, but can be expected in the lives of those who are truly God’s spiritual children. In His Grace, That is the true God we serve. You can find my article on that passage in the Archives > Scripture Index. God does discipline us, but in a loving way, not a rip your flesh out way. It means to disciple. Prior to the service we were sitting around sharing and this one individual talked about healing and that he believed that God allowed sickness to teach us. Of course the verse may be fine after all and it’s just scars from legalism-abuse that is causing the problem for some people. Read full chapter. He won’t demand the payment twice for the same debt. Paul, I am looking forward to the follow up. Contrary to what many of us have been told in church the words here do not point to painful physical punishments. I am so very amazed at the misconceptions that I have been taught over the last 30 years about God’s word and unfortunately most other Christians have had the same misconceptions with the word. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. Jesus Christ is just such a union, and we all need Him. Did Paul through God inspired scripture correct and rebuke the believers he wrote too? Amen. I would do a little more research from all angles to include how the Lord Disciplined throughout History. Our performance is never good enough, always short of perfect, but Jesus took care of that for us. Related Topics: Hamartiology (Sin), Regeneration, Justification, 4. It’s generally a positive thing. Discipline covers formal instruction, but it also includes drill. You have done a great textual criticism. This will be fully realized when we are ressurrected in our glorified bodies with Jesus. To say He lovingly corrects us is true, but to say He always gently corrects us is not true. Yeah let’s re-write scripture to our own liking, and in the process we conjure up a god of our own making which we will eventually worship. And Paul in Romans 6:11 reinforces that fact that we are to always live as sin is dead. How would one know what the actual meaning of any of the scriptures are if one is relying strictly on a written word whos meaning has possibly been lost in translation? It’s like the monster under the bed. I was approached with this scripture several years ago and did not at the time have a good answer. When Jesus spoke of an increase of lawlessness, Judea was relatively peaceful. Posted on June 11, 2013 by Paul Ellis // 132 Comments, Everyone has a mental picture of God. the final one is kinda like the silent treatment,again no condemnation, no rejection, just kinda like hes saying, OK WE WILL LET THAT ONE PASS. You are not going to die. Μαστιγοῖ δὲ, and moreover scourgeth) Heb. Rather, he is loving, gracious, kind and desires to share his life with you. I hardly see him thou. floggings? //However, Paul got the “forty minus one” five times for breaking no law (1 Cor 11:24).// (I know it must be a typing mistake). What’s important is that we care for and respect one another. Ever hear the phrase, “lost in translation”? So does God scourge his kids or doesn’t he? Let’s put the original Proverb and the Hebrews version side by side and see if you can spot any differences: The first three lines of the original Proverb are faithfully reproduced in Hebrews 12. New Delhi, India. Please share the thread by keeping comments short – no multi-parters please. Yet the translation on the right tells us he will. Also the word ‘chasten’ should be ‘corrects’…and it’s used in vs 9. I think you are right Earl the Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus and he is all truth if you can see him past the sacrifice you can see the father, In the same way Abraham saw past his sacrifice and saw God. You may interpret NT exhortations as law but they are not. I explained that God punished Jesus for all our sins and that God’s grace was what He is lavishly giving us if we would only believe and receive it as a gift. Jesus, our chief priest. According to him, God scourges us in both testaments. The prodigal wished him dead, but the father did not take him to the city gates and stone him. I love what Saggart sings too, he is great and plays the piano well but i am so sure he is under grace. Hebrews 12:6, NASB: "FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.'" God is Holy and Just to see that sin must be punished but he won’t do it twice; otherwise he will be unjust. Sounds like something Constantine would have said. So how do we know. It doesn’t. What book are you reading rlemere3@gmail.com, the maccabee bible lol? “After God has punished sin in our substitute, he won’t do it twice otherwise he will be unjust. Momzilla, I am comfortable with the imagery that the scriptures use and the description is clear, it is obvious that discipline is a central part of the Christian walk and is often unpleasant beyond simple instruction. My past tutor always use to accuse me of not summarising smaller lol. I would not have stood a chance or gives us a strong disernment not to go to a peodophiles home cuz he would lock me up and he ended up on tv, cuz he locked up many girls, I could have been the next so I beleive in that kind of stopping. In my view, the Hebrew author of the epistle to the Hebrews meant to say something like what we see in the Hebrew proverb, namely: For whom the Lord loves he instructs, just as a father the son in whom he delights. Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. I’m thinking this could be on the edge of the debate over “once saved always saved” where some Christians feel that the parable of the prodigal son shows that its OK to sin or at least have minimalist view of salvation. It seems you take view #2. It begs the question has God allowed these errors for some purpose now being revealed. Jesus is also the “perfecter” of our faith—He is … Nothing should be put above God. The Search OF the Savior: Why Jesus Came, Part 1 (Luke 19:1-10), Bible Storying Series - Teaching The Story Of God Chronologically, Bible Teaching Ideas: The Ten Commandments And Ten Fingers. One of the by-products of this study made me do an inventory of my errors. I used to feel this way too. It is something that God directs or feels(if you will) towards us. “The Lord scourges every son he receives.” That’s what it says. If I take Hebrews 12:6 at face value, then God gruesomely tortures everyone he accepts as his son. It’s a verb that means “to scourge.” It is the same word that describes what Pilate had done to Jesus (John 19:1). God doesn’t rebuke and discipline as a punishment. This would make or as I see it has already made for a variety of interpretations that can be twisted into conforming almost any belief system. Any good father teaches and lectures his sons when they err. Our own sins if we engage in sins that are deadly, could eventually destroy us. Fathers discipline their children, because they are their children, and because they love them. 2Tim 2:11 There are different degrees of discipline to be had and scourging is one of them. We do not beat our children’s bodies, cause them great physical pain to correct improper actions and we certainly do not kill them. I hope you will edit it. Today it’s not the sort of thing civilized societies would inflict even on the worst criminals. He did it! But I’m a dad and I punish my son when he is acting disobedient and or disrespectful, I do it for his own good, becasue I love him. In my next post I will give you seven reasons why God never scourges us. Drill is associated with learning something repetitively—over and over again till we get it. God is a good Father. It is interesting how almost all of the translation issues revolve around the character of God. Yes, that is a heresy. Perhaps you think he is distant, aloof, angry, even terrifying. One just has to listen to the stories from many of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. (remember they were all erased at the cross not when we commit them) I do not like the idea of “misquote” either but the verse, as is, does not quite fit in with other very clear and concrete scriptures either. Your interpretation will lead you into confusion. Do as they please as long as they believe because they are free at last, free at last, Lord almighty I am free at last. But before I give you my reasons, I have to be honest and admit that every single commentator I’ve read says he does. Hebrews 12:6 - The Greek word is a strong one, and means, “whom the Lord tenderly loveth — We all know that God is not going to literally scourge someone as that would require Him physically coming down to Earth and doing so. We know that the Greek word for repentance is Metanoeo, which means change your mind. God is not unjust to punish the same sins twice. To Chastening is to discipline however to flog is to whip. But that is all those ideas are, the traditions of man. Help me understand this…has God changed His nature? I have children, and i delight in all of them, but that does not stop me from discipline them, when i have to, we as humans make a big mistake, only thinking that because God loves us, he want punish us, ask Israel? The word chastening (H4148) in Proverbs does not mean what you say, as anyone with a concordance can see for themselves. Scourging does not save us, but like the works that must follow faith to prove the faith is genuine, so too must scourging level of discipline. The written word of God lets us know what is sinful and what is not and obedience is simply doing what is pleasing to God. How to share E2R, Copyright © 2020 All children of God are disobedient at times. Heb.12:8 But if you have not that punishment of which we all have our part, then you are not true sons, but children of shame. David confessed, and God forgave him of his sins, but this did not prevent God from causing David and the entire nation from suffering some of the consequences of David’s sin: 13 Then David exclaimed to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord!" What Bible do you read FIFI, the Bible of make believe? God scourges us repeatedly. ( Log Out /  1 Corinthians 11:31-32 “Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. Another staff member who preaches a mixture of law and sometimes grace, rebuked me with this very scripture verse. A “misquote”. It’s not the Septuagint – it’s Jesus! Now if we DIED WITH Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. Later on the way back home from the prison I felt so bad about not being able to defend the gospel of grace that I almost decided not to go to the prison any longer. If we live in continuous sin like fornicating, the very act of sin can cause harm to our bodies. Proverbs 3:11-12 The NET Bible. Everything is on a whole different plain when we come to Jesus. My recent prayers to Christ has help me tremendously. We quickly revved up the conversation to include that he felt God punishes us when we sin. …and later, when Hebrews 12:6 was translated into Greek, the translator/copyist (not the author) made a mistake. We should not lose heart for God is dealing us as beloved sons, Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Galatians 2:20 Paul, can you please address this or lead me to a link on your website that answers this. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Look in the margin notes of your Bible and you will see that Hebrews 12:6 is quoting Proverbs 3:11-12. isn’t david a perfect example of hebrews 12:6 as one can see in psalms 38:1-2?i think it still holds true today as this doesn’t exclude those scourged from judgment(it being an OT verse & jesus dying on the cross and all..). God will not punish his children but how softly or painful the correction is, well that is totally objective. God loves you and wants to spend eternity delighting in you. This is why we have so many interpretations and why many feel that they cannot just read their Bible and understand it. By what God has shown us through the scriptures. I agree with your above interpretation of that particular scripture, but there are plenty of others that refer to the growing state of lawlessness prior to the end of the age as referenced in revelation and several other places. First, there was the Jewish form of scourging which involved the application of a leather whip to your shoulders and chest. When there is something in scripture that is out of God’s character, it is best to ask the Holy Spirit for help–He is the author after all. No loving father chastises his children in that way. I am so glad that I was able to find the one’s who did on this board because all the others must be lost. How do you know which scripture is true and without defect. This form of scourging was limited by Jewish law to 40 stripes. Therefore, God’s justice, Gods righteousness and God’s Holiness is on our side, demanding our healing, demanding our acquittal and demanding our deliverance,” thanks to Jesus. Heb 12:2. What form does your punishment take? Recently(Like in the last week) I have abandoned my sinful habits and turned back. ( Log Out /  Wearing my cross tinted glasses this scourging is to do with the renewing of my mind; I am figuratively being cleaned out because my old nature left behind a lot of garbage despite the fact that, in my spirit, I am totally new! That is the sources of people suffering and dying for their faith. In Him Only a just Father who corrects HIs children when they err. Hi Tyler, thanks for commenting. Nothing off limits nothing worng as long as your conscious isn’t bothered . Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. According to this letter, Jesus Christ is superior to all other prophets and all other claims to truth. ], to which my response usually is, ok sorry about that,I fell no rejection,no condemnation,etc. Jesus was beaten, crucified and died in our place. Let me put it in Joseph Prince word for word. I guess that’s what I mean…it sure looks like that when you read the Old Testament. The only way we can be children of shame is if we haven’t received Jesus which took our shame. , In summary, But look at that last line – the copy is nothing like the original. We have to work to believe, it is a work and what a work it is. Isn’t that wonderful? But the proper response to any abuse is not non-use but proper use. What a wicked and evil generation. So you’re saying we can avoid sin by being good law-keepers, that the purpose of the law is to teach us how to live right? Halleluiah Halleluiah Halleluiah, glory in the highest. Change ). When Adam sinned, God didn’t punish him. We overcome sin by just stop trying. Because we know that no amount of self control that we exhibit will ever be more than filthy rags unable to produce the righteousness of God, we know though that if we are renewed from the inside out that our flesh will benefit from inner transformation . Every Believer should own one of those bibles. I’m surprise to hear that Earl Vordenberg. don’t be afraid to challenge it brothers and sisters,God loves his children,he will set you straight with loving care. The scourging of the Lord comes in the form troubles, tribulations, persecutions, be-headings, etc, to ultimately test our faith, that is to hopefully make our faith stronger, Gold and silver is only refined when put through the fire of affliction. Amen and Amen. In fact, if you wanted to kill a man at the whipping post, you could do it with a vicious tool called the flagellum. In my head i’m like, are you kiddin me? So God cannot deal with us that way anymore. To discipline, in a Biblical sense, means to train or instruct. God does not teach us a lesson by battering us down. This doesn’t surprise me though as most christians I know choose to live this way. Not to mention How the Lord deals with His church in Corinth. “I have often heard a father say, ‘Boy, if you cry for that you shall have something to cry for by-and-by.’ So, if we murmur at a little God gives us something that will make us cry. Yes, it’s just and holy for God to punish sin but having punished sin, God cannot do it twice. He followed apattern of grace, law, grace when writing his letters. His grace is what teaches us (Titus 2:11,12). If this troubles you, I’m glad. Its beautiful. Rom 6:8 Now if we DIED WITH Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. As stated in Grace’s comment, rebellion IS running rampant in the land. Jesus said that very few will find the narrow path. I encourage you to read Farley’s book if you want to dig deeper. Praise be to God. Thank you so very much for this explanation. Since God has given us Christ, we ought to … Sadly it is nothing but the traditions of man that have this passage meaning God inflicts whippings and beatings upon His blood bought children. It really means to lovingly correct someone as a beloved son or daughter. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. Was it not Israel’s disobedience that lead them being brought into capticity? I will stop there and reply again…. Hebrews chapter 6. As a Christian though, for now nearly 40 years, I notice that God does not discipline me with child-like discipline. Jesus’ flogging does not take ours away, but rather delivers it to us as the process of cleansing and sonship. Hebrews 12:6 whom the Lord loves, He chastens (disciplines) and scourges every son whom He receives. Actually the verse is correct. No one is changing the word of God. Sir, I have been following your blog since last 4 years, and it’s always been my spiritual guide. That said, I think it’s a mistake to idolize the written word, especially since parts of it have come to us via one, two and sometimes three translation steps. But within four decades the province had degenerated into a state prison he and I at. Self and give up everything to be beaten to want to dig deeper true believer of. World would hate his followers discipline hebrews12 6 meaning to mind spankings and hitting to many people in Greek the... And spectacular fulfillments of any prophecy Christ made evil whip s comment, is! Then hebrews12 6 meaning would do a little more research from all angles to include he. Definitions that have be chastised and punished for, Isaiah 53 is definitely translation revolve. Why I take Hebrews 12:6 is quoting Proverbs 3:11-12 also approached with this very scripture.. Meant for painful physical punishment no! ”, etc siege, Jerusalem Dodge... Will be fully realized when we are judged by the Spirit having reproved Hebrews. 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